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Lachlan10-31-2008, 09:12 PMI know this is the autocross forum, but there's no rallycross forum, so I thought I'd piggyback. I'm considering getting an AW11 for rallycross next season, and I'm wondering if there's a "best model year" to select for race? Any year that had better (or worse) structure, suspension, weight, etc? Or is it a wash? te51levin10-31-2008, 10:15 PMAn interesting question. It depends on what you are allowed to change and what must remain stock in your race class. I don't pretend to know all the answers, but here are my thoughts:

1985 is the only year NA to get a rear sway bar as standard. This is useful for SCCA Solo guys who are sometimes not allowed to add sway bars to a car not originally equipped. Most '85s and '86s I see have power package, cruise control, A/C, etc.

1986 is just like a 1985, mechanically speaking, but without the rear sway bar.

1987 got bigger brake rotors, which is good, and also an improved (marginally stronger?) transmission. The rear suspension geometry was altered to be more stable and less twitchy. Some cars got a T-top roof, which is bad for racing: it adds weight high on the car and (we assume) causes a lack of torsional stiffness. Some cars came as "base" models with cheaper seats and no power equipment. 1988 and 1989 NA models are largely the same as 1987 mechanically.

If you are allowed to modify the chassis, any year will do. Find the cheapest rust-free hardtop you can and go like hell. Lachlan11-02-2008, 08:00 PMThanks. For stock rwd it pretty much has to be factory fresh; however, I would probably be shooting for the prepared rwd or modified 2wd. In Utah I had a friend that drove an MR2 in prepared rear but complained that it lacked power despite its light weight. If that's the case I may do an engine swap in the future, which would push me into M2, which allows just about anything you could need. Brakes aren't as big a deal in rally as they are on tarmac, so the brake change isn't a concern for me, but I'm wondering about the rear suspension. But it sounds like the biggest thing to worry about is getting a hard top. Matchbx11-03-2008, 01:39 PMI rallycross my 85 hardtop and it's decent. I need some more seat time to get used to it though. It seems very easy to flick around at the higher speeds, but the tighter turns it tends to push a bit more than I like.

I started out in a 93 AWD Talon that I ran for 3 seasons. Then I switched to FWD for 2 seasons and now I'm on to RWD. I competed in M2 for most of the year (even though my car just barely gets bumped out of SR into PR). The 4AGE has plenty of power. It seems to come down more to handling for me. And as I said before, I still have to get used to this drivetrain.

As far as years go, I can't really say much. I like my 85, but I've put alot of work into it to get it up and running. The only thing that puts me into PR is my racing seat. I have an all aluminum Kirkey racing seat. It makes a HUGE difference in how you can drive the car in rallycross!! The one thing you will want to invest in is some decent winter tires (i.e. Blizzaks or Hakka's). They won't bump you up in class and they make a big difference on pretty much any surface you run on.

Hope this helps a little. If you have any classing questions or anything, let me know. I'm the Land O Lakes region Chairperson and my good friend is part of the national rallycross board of directors. Lachlan11-03-2008, 05:59 PMAre there many hard tops around anymore? Almost everything I see is a "sports roof." curvesrgood11-03-2008, 06:27 PMYou can find hardtops... they're just a little harder to find because you only see 85 and 86 hardtops... in 87 they got t-tops and sunroofs (only right?). I got my hardtop 86 ex-race car chassis for a great deal (free pickup across the state from me), but haven't gotten it on the road yet. Can't wait to though! Just keep an eye out, you can find one somewhere out there. There were a fair number of them in 85 and 86. jamesp11-26-2008, 10:27 PMThanks. For stock rwd it pretty much has to be factory fresh; however, I would probably be shooting for the prepared rwd or modified 2wd. In Utah I had a friend that drove an MR2 in prepared rear but complained that it lacked power despite its light weight. If that's the case I may do an engine swap in the future, which would push me into M2, which allows just about anything you could need. Brakes aren't as big a deal in rally as they are on tarmac, so the brake change isn't a concern for me, but I'm wondering about the rear suspension. But it sounds like the biggest thing to worry about is getting a hard top.
---resurrecting a dormant thread---

If it were me (and it probably will be next season...), I'd put bilsteins and good snows (Kelly Magna Grip) on it and run it in SR, or a race seat, LSD (legal in PR in 09), and rally tires and run it in PR.

From what I've seen, the FWD cars have more grip, and they're hard to beat in a RWD car if the FWD driver is even moderately good. I run a Neon in M2, and every RWD car I've ever run against isn't even close, especially on tight courses, where you can left-foot brake and walk a FWD car around it's front wheels.

just my .02...

james phillips
98 Neon SCCA RallyCross M2 powderballz12-10-2008, 01:24 PMHonestly, with RallyX, the weight difference between a T-tops car or a hardtop probably won't effect your times greatly. Rally is way more about driver control than anything else, having a couple extra pounds on the car won't effect you times as greatly as it might in autoX because RallyX is a whole different beast. Matchbx12-10-2008, 01:28 PMI think the only thing I would worry about with a t-top car would be flexing the body enough to make the t-tops leak later on. jamesp12-11-2008, 10:22 AMI think the only thing I would worry about with a t-top car would be flexing the body enough to make the t-tops leak later on.
I'm more worried about the T-tops exploding above your head when you roll it. Rollovers happen, I've seen two. Matchbx12-11-2008, 11:40 AMYeah, we've had 2 as well over the past 10 years. They were from people over driving their cars. One was a fully prepped rally car and the other was a semi-prepped one. Niether caused harm to the occupants. powderballz12-14-2008, 01:57 AMI' just gonna go out an a limb and say that if your fear about rolling over is shattering the T-tops, you're not thinking very good. LOL

Plus, if you rollover, its not like the glass is going to fall on you...your going to be on your roof:lol: 328FTW12-14-2008, 04:33 AMI' just gonna go out an a limb and say that if your fear about rolling over is shattering the T-tops, you're not thinking very good. LOL

Plus, if you rollover, its not like the glass is going to fall on you...your going to be on your roof:lol:

I have been watching this thread and you were the first to notice that (finally lol). It is all about pillar strength cause t-top or hardtop the bit in between does almost nothing for you it is the pillars holding your head off the ground which is why speedway midgets and such don't even have a roof just open sky and a cage. jamesp12-15-2008, 12:29 AMI' just gonna go out an a limb and say that if your fear about rolling over is shattering the T-tops, you're not thinking very good. LOL

Plus, if you rollover, its not like the glass is going to fall on you...your going to be on your roof:lol:

You should test that theory for us, and report back. The rollovers that I've seen at rallycrosses don't support it. powderballz12-15-2008, 06:42 PMYou should test that theory for us, and report back. The rollovers that I've seen at rallycrosses don't support it.

Quoting Billy Madison "I Know from experience dude,"

Not RallyX, but this was at our Ohio Fall Foliage meet in 07.....

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u79/powderballz/DSCF0004.jpg
Car rolled onto the roof, and just stayed there, you can see my red 93 in the background. Matchbx12-16-2008, 09:21 AMThe really bad thing about t-tops or even a glass sunroof in a rollover incident is that once that glass breaks, if you are rolling a few times over, your arms can fling out of the opening and get crushed between the ground and the roof of the car. And like you said, it reduces the structural integrity having t-tops. I believe they design the t-top cars to have strength in the chassis from twisting and not for protection in rollover situations.

And as stated before, if you roll at a rallycross you are seriously not paying attention to what you're doing. You are WAY over driving your abilities and the terrain. We've only had 2 rollovers in over 10 years of putting on rallycrosses. We design our courses and keep tabs on the degradation of the course to minimize it as much as possible. Many times we have to make changes to the course (move a corner a little, etc) between runs to compensate for the degradation of the terrain. But it can happen at pretty much anytime if the conditions are right. 328FTW12-16-2008, 06:33 PMPeople that do not hold onto the steering wheel hard and passengers that don't sit right deserve to have their arms crushed. I cannot tell you how many people get their fingers crushed cause they hold onto the cage during a race even though they are told not to and it is enforced strictly:banghead: Then there are the ones that try to hold the roof up when they roll. I know crashing is a shock but they are briefed every meeting at our club on how to sit and where to put there arms at all times and ignore the warnings then wonder why officials tell them to leave. And when I stand in as an official I know no matter how stupid what they were doing was it is my ass on the line. And yes I ranted my away from the topic of t-tops onto morons. Matchbx12-17-2008, 09:25 AMI've heard of this happening too with the grabbing of the roll cage. I don't know if I would want to hold onto the steering wheel though. If the wheel hits right and spins the steering wheel, you're gonna break your wrists. Grab your harnesses or grab the sides of your shirt. That way the centrifugal forces can't pull your arms toward the roof. 328FTW12-18-2008, 02:05 AMI've heard of this happening too with the grabbing of the roll cage. I don't know if I would want to hold onto the steering wheel though. If the wheel hits right and spins the steering wheel, you're gonna break your wrists. Grab your harnesses or grab the sides of your shirt. That way the centrifugal forces can't pull your arms toward the roof.

Yeah that is how I snapped my wrist a couple years back but there was no choice the car snapped around and then hit a ditch and rolled and when it landed spun the wheel. Adrenalin was still going though so I started up and tried to hook reverse but my hand wouldn't close. Car went out in the next race after hammering the guards off the wheels:lol: For true fail the hospital turned me away when I got there and I didn't go back till the next day then they asked why I didn't come sooner:rolleyes: Passenger had his hands tucked in the harness cause our club enforces that with good reason. Lachlan01-04-2009, 07:32 PMI would think you'd want to keep your hands on the wheel to keep control as long as possible. Granted, when your wheels are off the ground it doesn't do much good. Lachlan01-04-2009, 07:34 PM---resurrecting a dormant thread---

If it were me (and it probably will be next season...), I'd put bilsteins and good snows (Kelly Magna Grip) on it and run it in SR, or a race seat, LSD (legal in PR in 09), and rally tires and run it in PR.

From what I've seen, the FWD cars have more grip, and they're hard to beat in a RWD car if the FWD driver is even moderately good. I run a Neon in M2, and every RWD car I've ever run against isn't even close, especially on tight courses, where you can left-foot brake and walk a FWD car around it's front wheels.

just my .02...

james phillips
98 Neon SCCA RallyCross M2

Just curious, when you talk about more grip are you comparing to MRs or FRs? Where would one pick up an LSD? 328FTW01-05-2009, 06:19 AMThat left foot walk thing when done right can make a FWD fly round a corner. I also know that I can make my 2 fly when I'm on form and can beat a da6 integra in my mkI sc (as long as it is short straights), not everytime just we are closely matched. Left footing works well but I run a brake balance valve and use well timed popping of the clutch to flick the backend on really tight courses....plus I drive like godzilla is chasing me. But as soon as the hondas run a vtec controller they walk all over me, that is a different class though (even though some get away with it in the lower class)

And an LSD can be had from a levin or sc mkI. I have one and personally I don't think it makes a huge difference until you are putting down some horsepower. It is strange though, my takeoffs didn't really get any faster because it never really spun up bad but with the lsd it will axle tramp (I think the engine mounts are a bit weak). The thing that changed was cornering it just helped balance the car a little and stopped the inside wheel spinning up on hard corner exit. Matchbx01-05-2009, 01:09 PMI would think you'd want to keep your hands on the wheel to keep control as long as possible. Granted, when your wheels are off the ground it doesn't do much good.

When you start rolling (or know that there is no way to regain control) it is best to take the hands off of the wheel. Sometimes it even helps bring you back straight. But if you are rolling, you no longer have control over anything and are just along for the ride. If the wheel pegs the ground, it will spin the steering wheel and all the strength in the world is useless in trying to hold the wheel straight.

Learning to left foot brake properly in rally and rallycross can make all the difference in the world. You can have the most underpowered, worst drivetrain configuration in the world and still hang with the awd's out there. A guy that runs out here used to drive an old Subaru Justy Hatchback fwd. It was, IIRC, a 3cyl. carb'd engine in it. It was an early 80's one, something like 83 or so. He used to get FTD and be on the podium at almost every race. The guy could definitely drive! 328FTW01-05-2009, 05:03 PMI was told by a top rally driver from the ford escort (woot!) days that even when you don't know what to do don't do nothing. He said if you can't decide between brake or throttle don't keep your foot off the pedals mash them both so you at least have some control. That guy drives a gsr integra and nothing can touch it, NOTHING. I do as he said but I'm not the type for not knowing what to do.

I do believe that you have to develop your own style though. People that reach the top are not superhuman they just have excellent control and superb driving style. I am a demon with short wheelbase RWD but not so good with 4WD or FWD because of what I drove while learning how to go quick. Lachlan01-05-2009, 06:07 PMIt seems like whenever I watch WRC crashes, the codriver folds his arms but the driver stays on the wheel. I may have selective memory though.

Going from an over-powered awd vehicle to an underpowered rwd vehicle is going to make me develop an entire new style for myself. Getting there is half the fun though. 328FTW01-05-2009, 07:33 PMThey normally are holding the wheel because they don't expect to crash. Normally they are racing along and the driver clips a bank and WHAM you are rolling. People talk about the things you should do during a crash but running through a checklist at 100mph while tumbling is not actually the first thing on your mind regardless of if you have a plan set out or not. It is sorta like when you learn to drive quick. The first slides you get into you know to counter steer but then it actually happens and by the time you think about it you have already spun. Plus it is not only centripetal force you are fighting but the car slamming the ground in every direction trying to rip your arms left, right, up, down, back .. ... .. It is really scary and you lose all sense of direction very quickly.

Also power steering makes a huge difference when rolling. A car with power steering will not kick anywhere near as hard as a normal rack and pinion because of the hydraulic resistance to a sudden hit. Not sure about good ol steering boxes but not many people race with those slow old things. 87MR24RX12-17-2011, 11:13 AM(Resurrecting a dead thread, since this is why I just bought my MR2)

I just found an 87 hardtop 5speed with manual steering that sounds ideal for RX. I think the rigidity of a hardtop will be more of a factor than less weight, just my $.02 worth.

I'm thinking RWD with the engine on top of the drive wheels for better traction should make for some fun runs this Spring. Couldn't care less about classes or points, I'm there to spend the day driving like I stole it and have fun safely.

I do need some snow tires if possible before the season, otherwise I'll just run whatever I have now. 328FTW12-17-2011, 12:08 PMSnow tyres can be horrible at it. I just run dedicated tyres now, big open cut things. Makes a big difference 87MR24RX12-17-2011, 12:17 PMSnow tyres can be horrible at it. I just run dedicated tyres now, big open cut things. Makes a big difference

Nice. My friend that's the Rallycross Chair here suggested snow tires after the winter season ends. What brand do you use? 328FTW12-17-2011, 12:43 PMI forget which brand is on it now but the design looks something like this

http://www.motorsportads.com/assets/products/11305-19256-75033.JPG 87MR24RX12-17-2011, 04:05 PMNow THOSE are nice rallycross tires. Wish you had the brand name. rocklizzard9112-17-2011, 04:14 PMThat's a pretty common rally tire I came across those a lot used when looking for some. Do sine digging and you can find a set on the cheap

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 328FTW12-17-2011, 04:40 PMThey make a huge difference imo. Seconds difference, my old tyres were snow gravel ones then I went to these which are a wet and loose gravel kinda open cut. That plus the 3sge I dropped in and I went from having trouble with integras to fighting it out with 4wds and 400hp FR cars that couldn't put the power down.

I should of got a trollface for the bonnet cause my car was pretty much trolling people at that point, $300 car with a $250 engine and gearbox. Weight is huge in rally as well, I got out most of what was practical, when I take passengers it shows especially in the wet. You'll want a rear swaybar as well, that helped me a bit compared to no swaybar. rocklizzard9112-18-2011, 05:10 AMI really want to get into rally x :( I don't think there's ANY near me :(

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 87MR24RX05-10-2012, 09:52 PMHad our first event Saturday. Big time mud pit with plenty of rain the night before, and that morning. Still total fun! A few pix posted elsewhere here, and some Youtube videos under the name jstem1994. Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.